Here is the transcription of the Interview. We don’t have a video copy available of this Video. We are providing the Transcript of the interview here.
Dr. Skaden. Hello everyone, this is Larry Skaden of the National Science Foundation Program for Persons with Disabilities. And we are beginning a new series of interviews with people that are involved in promoting science, engineering, and mathematics education for students with disabilities. Over last year we interviewed a number of people who are Directors of projects supported by the National Science Foundation Program for Persons with Disabilities. And we are going to be doing that again this year. And today with me on the telephone is Karen Milchus from Georgia Tech, hi Karen.
Karen. Hello.
Dr. Skaden. You are there, very good. Will you begin by telling us what is your actual position at Georgia Tech?
Karen. Okay. I am a research engineer at the Center for Rehabilitation echnology. Maybe I should explain what that is first.
Dr. Skaden. Good.
Karen. CRT is a research group that was actually started as a project of the industrial design program here at Georgia Tech. The students started working on projects related to accessible playgrounds and other types of activities, and our group was born.
Dr. Skaden. How long go; this was when?
Karen. This was actually about 20 years ago.
Dr. Skaden. And that was primarily in the beginning, it was architecture?
Karen. Architecture and product design.
Dr. Skaden. Okay, product designs too.
Karen. And since then we have got more involved with job accommodation and information referral services.
Dr. Skaden. And you are an engineer. What area of engineering?
Karen. It is sort of unusual how I got into this field. My undergraduate degree was in electrical engineering, and my master’s degree is in bio-medical engineering. Though actually when I started school, I was pre-med. And it was because of, well most pre-med students; it is suggested that you do some volunteer work at a local hospital. And I was placed on the pediatric rehabilitation floor and discovered all the interesting things that they were doing with communication devices and computer access with the people on that ward. I sort of fell in love with the area.
Dr. Skaden. So as an undergraduate doing part of your work, you were in a medical facility? And that was how you got introduced to disabilities and the technologies related to them, the people with disabilities?
Karen. Right. And one of the ways I got into this particular project is being a woman in an engineering field, for a long time I was doing a lot of job presentations trying to get more women interested in science and technology. So the job to students with disabilities was not very large.
Dr. Skaden. Now here at the NSF we have programs dealing with three groups, three major groups of people who have historically been under-represented in science careers, women, minorities, and people with disabilities. So you definitely have touched on two of those already in your career. So where were you when you were in school? As I recall it you were from Michigan.
Karen. Right. My undergraduate degree was at University of Michigan. My graduate degree was at Case Western Reserve University. And the thing that attracted me to their program was they were doing a lot of work with functional electrical simulation within their biomedical engineering project. And what that is, is where they will use electrical simulation to cause or paralyze muscles to contract. And if you can do that in kind of an appropriate order you can produce, in this case, a hand graph for a person who otherwise has a spinal cord injury and is unable to pick up objects. From that I found out a little bit more about spinal cord injuries, and got a little bit more interested in the other types of technology that people with those disabilities were using.
Dr. Skaden. So how did you move from Cleveland to Atlanta? To go from Case Western to Georgia Tech?
Karen. It was the job.
Dr. Skaden. So there was a job opening?
Karen. It was a job opening. There was a short time there were I was working at the University of Wisconsin Stout with another place called the Center for Rehabilitation Technology.
Dr. Skaden. Yes, I know that too.
Karen. And they were doing a lot of work with job accommodations, and also educational accommodations for people with disabilities. But the jump to Georgia Tech was just a job opening at the time.
Dr. Skaden. Now over the last, what is it been, about three years you have been involved with an NSF supported project or projects. It is plural now. The primary goal was to find the best way of adapting laboratories, or developing materials to teach teachers how to adapt laboratory experiments for disabled students. Is this a basic summary?
Karen. That’s right. That is correct. And one way that we got started with that originally is within the systems technology there are all sorts of technologies out there. One of my focuses is computer access. Looking at ways that a person with a disability can use a computer. And if you have wandered into a science classroom lately, you will discover that there are a lot more experiment simulations, and computer controlled labs, and other types of computer based technology that are being used more often within the science class. One of the things that we wanted to do is to look at ways of combining that technology with the technology that was out there to help people with disabilities use a computer.
Dr. Skaden. Let’s take an example. I know that you have done some work with chemistry experiments. Now what kind of regular instrumentation would be used by a person who did not have a disability, in a chemistry lab?
Karen. Well for example, if you were doing an acid based titration for example. One of the standard ways of doing that experiment with BTUs some type of color indicators so that you can see when you have reached the balance point, the equilibrium point for the acid and base that you are adding together. Usually you will use something like phenylphalen, and it will turn pink a little bit. For person with a visual impairment though that can be a problem.
Dr. Skaden. I would think so. I would think that for someone who is color blind that would also be a problem.
Karen. That would also be a problem. Another approach that classes are starting to use are small digital pH meters. The problem there it is that quite often the display is really quite small for a person who has low vision. So one of the things that we might look at is using a computer controlled lab system. Where you can plug a sensor into the computer and then you can display the ratings full-screen size, or possibly have the computer read the information back to you.
Dr. Skaden. Now what is the sensor going to be doing? It’s not looking at the color, is that correct? It is actually doing a chemical analysis?
Karen. No. It is actually doing a chemical analysis in this case. And it will give you pH ratings on the screen, which can be graphed or kept in tabular form. But like I said, it can either be magnified or read back out to you. Or actually if you are trying to operate controls, saying okay, I want to take a reading right now. It might be possible to operate that through voice command.
Dr. Skaden. Okay.
Karen. So technology to help people with disabilities use a computer, that will also interface with that type of software.
Dr. Skaden. So I want to go back to the sensors. Now when you indicated that a lot of chemical analysis is done by vision, and by looking at color. So rather than doing the color, the colors actually is just a manifestation of some chemical change. And the sensor then is measuring the chemical changes. Is that the situation?
Karen. I believe so.
Dr. Skaden. So basically you are bypassing the visual part and going to the chemical analysis. And then you are able, because it is digitized, is that the situation, you can make that accessible?
Karen. Correct. The information is digitized and is read into a computer, and from that you can do everyone with information.
Dr. Skaden. Yes. And it is accessible to anyone that has an accessible computer, a usable computer at his or her disposal.
Karen. Right.
Dr. Skaden. All right now what other science areas, I mentioned chemistry as an example, are there other science is that you are working with that this point?
Karen. The other area that we are focusing on right now is physics. And partly because many of the computer controlled labs were actually designed for physics types of experiments initially. You can find sensors, different types of photo gates, and acceloramitors, and light probes, and all sorts of things like that.
Dr. Skaden. Right, and so these are experiments that would be conducted in physics labs by all students?
Karen. Right.
Dr. Skaden. And this is a common type of instrumentation to be using? Or is the something that was really specialized?
Karen. Only for the start of the project, I would have to say that it was a little bit more specialized. But now it is becoming a little bit more prevalent within the science labs. The equipment that we have been using for much of our work is by Vernir. And it is designed to be used by any of the students in the classroom. I think you can get a starter kit of software, an interface box, and a handful of probes, for under five hundred dollars. That is something that you are usually going to find probably more at the high school level. There are some middle schools that are getting into that type of equipment. And there are definitely a number of colleges that are getting into this as well.
Dr. Skaden. So what you are saying is, we recognize that more and more students who have disabilities have computers that are adapted for their use. Whether they need alternative imput or output. But if they have a computer, an accessible computer, and their science lab for under five hundred dollars will have equipment that can be used by all students to really increase their mastery of in this case physics. But the student with the disability then would be able to participate fully. Is that what I am understanding?
Karen. Right.
Dr. Skaden. And Vernir, could you spell that? Vernir?
Karen. That is correct.
Dr. Skaden. That is the company that puts out science laboratory instrumentation for schools?
Karen. Yes.
Dr. Skaden. It is primarily for schools?
Karen. Yes, it is primarily used for schools.
Dr. Skaden. Now over the last couple years, you have been conducting workshops all or the country talking about inclusion of students with disabilities and science education. Who are your audiences? Who are you talking to?
Karen. Well, mainly it is the high school and college level. We have also been trying to hit both science teachers and special education teachers. One of the things that we noticed with this project is that the special education teachers are very comfortable the idea, with the software that is out there for helping people with disabilities with a computer. But they are not always familiar with what types of science software are out there. On the other hand the science teachers are very familiar with the computer controlled laboratory equipment, but they may not have realized that there is for example magnification software out there that may be used with that.
Dr. Skaden. Okay. So your seminars really have to cover, you have to cover a lot of different things in the same seminar?
Karen. Not exactly. Well, I take that back. I have to admit most of our presentations have been for one audience or the other.
Dr. Skaden. Okay. Fine.
Karen. Actually for example we are going to be presenting at Closing the Gap in October, which is a special education conference that is held in Minneapolis. So that one will probably skip a little bit of the computer access overview and get right into the science details. Whereas a presentation we did for American Chemical Society did not spend quite as much time on what boiled (inaudible) was. But we spent a little bit more time on what an alternative keyboard was.
Dr. Skaden. Yes. Okay, when you do something, a workshop, let’s take the Closing the Gap one. Where are you going to be doing the science? Are you going to be stressing science? Are you able to actually do some scientific experiments? How do you go about presenting the science to someone without being in laboratory setting?
Karen. But I have to admit, I think hotels get a little nervous. But actually what I have been taking on the road lately are gas pressure experiments, which are really not messy all. Or conductivity, where I am just dealing with saltwater. Bring a pile of paper towels along and I am usually okay.
Dr. Skaden. And then you take part of the Vernir test kits and a computer with an alternative input output type thing so you can show how somebody would use it? Is that basically what you are doing?
Karen. Correct.
Dr. Skaden. What kind of reception I receiving from the science teachers?
Karen. Pretty good. I have to admit we have not always had huge attendance at our workshops. That’s one reason why this fall we probably are going to be switching into exhibiting a little bit more, and having some more one-on-one conversations with interested parties rather than try to schedule a workshop.
Dr. Skaden. Well I know when there are concurrent sessions and the word disability appears you do not get those who really need it.
Karen. Right, not always. I was particularly surprised at this last conference for the American Chemical Society how many people came up to me and said, you know I had a student last semester who was and then fill in the blank, so there is a need out there.
Dr. Skaden. Definitely.
Karen. And a lot of people are beginning to realize that even if it is not information that you need right now, that it is information that will help them down the road. It is just sort of a matter of what that particular student needs for their class.
Dr. Skaden. Now what kind of disabilities do you feel that your information is being able to be affected? I said that wrong, but I think you understand. Who can benefit? And what disabilities will benefit from the information?
Karen. Understood. There are for this particular laboratory experiment project, we are focusing on students with physical disabilities or with visual impairments. I haven’t really gotten too much into hearing impairments. I haven’t gotten too much into learning disabilities. However having said that we have been presenting at varyous conferences, that is either presenting or exhibiting. We even try to provide information about where people can find more information about all those other areas. You know pointing them to other NSF projects or other types of resources that are out there.
Dr. Skaden. I know that with learning disabilities, that the learning disability is primarily a reading disability. And the speech output you would get for someone who was blind will work just as well.
Karen. That is possible. That is possible.
Dr. Skaden. That is totally possible. No, it is certainly something that becomes an individual situation. It is one of the alternative approaches that can be used. Now I know that you put a lot of this material onto a website. Another part of your life is maintaining some websites.
Karen. Yes.
Dr. Skaden. Can you talk about the websites that you have at Georgia Tech?
Karen. For this particular project, the website address is barrier:free.arch.gatech.edu. And that is a site where we have a lot of the information about the laboratory access, information that we have just been talking about. But also links to other information about science and math accessibility. For example we have tried to provide links to the other NSF projects. We have tried to provide information about various articles that we have found along the way. For example math and Braille, various topics like that. That is the main project for this site. I have to say that I am working on a couple of other website’s.
Dr. Skaden. That is what I was going to lead to, yes. I know that is a part of your life that Georgia Tech, one especially that comes my mind. Why don’t you go right into your other activities?
Karen. Well the two other projects that I would like to mention, one is called Tech Connections. And that is a project that was put together to provide information on assistive technology to vocational rehabilitation counselors, though not necessarily limited to them. But it does have a little bit more of a job accommodation focus. So it is not dealing with classroom accessibility quite as much, but is dealing more with issues about the types of technology and accommodations that a person might use once they are on the job.
Dr. Skaden. And this is a variety of Tech jobs?
Karen. It is a variety of jobs.
Dr. Skaden. Is it tied to job titles? Or is it talking about functional limitations? The technology to overcome that.
Karen. A little bit of both. We are trying to cross list information, so that people can find the information either way. That is still a little bit in progress, as our most web sites.
Dr. Skaden. Yes. Why don’t you give the URL for that? What is the address?
Karen. That is www.techconnections.org.
Dr. Skaden. Okay, so that does not have a Georgia Tech, gatech, in there?
Karen. No, there is no Georgia Tech in that one.
Dr. Skaden. Techconnections.org.
Karen. Another aspect of the project is for people, who are trying to locate a particular type of assistive technology, we have a toll-free number that they can call. And we will try to see if we can track down what is out there for them. It is a toll-free number, it is 1-877-tek-seek. Or that comes out to 1-877-835-7335.
Dr. Skaden. So it is tek-seek, tekseek?
Karen. Correct.
Dr. Skaden. Tekseek. Do you reach a human? Or do you reach a voice mail?
Karen. Actually you usually get a human, unless the human is on another line.
Dr. Skaden. But the person would indicate a problem, and a need?
Karen. Right. A problem and a need. It could be related to science education. But it could also involve, have something to do maybe with school transportation or maybe some type of daily living issue. Trying to find an easier way of tying shoelaces for example. And we will check our catalogs and try to guide you towards what type of products are out there.
Dr. Skaden. Well that is fantastic. And this particular webcast has a very large audience, and a growing audience. And so that may stimulate more calls. This is nationwide?
Karen. Yes it is nationwide. It is actually funded by Nyder.
Dr. Skaden. Yes.
Karen. And it is a part of the Department of Education.
Dr. Skaden. How about Tech Connection? Is that also Nyder?
Karen. Yes that is Tech Connection; they are both a part of Tech Connection.
Dr. Skaden. One is a website, and the other is the telephone.
Karen. Now, I am going to transition into something here. Since you mentioned that this does have a wide audience our goal is, one of these days, to make our people answering the phones just a little too busy with the number of calls they are getting. But because of that we are also developing a website called; well actually the address is www.assistivetech.net, assistivetech.net. And that is also another Nyder project that is setting up a national assistive technology website. And our goal there is to put a lot of this catalog information onto the Internet so that people can find what types of products they are looking for. And it is a fairly new site. It just went live in late June I believe. But I think there are already about three thousand products on the site.
Dr. Skaden. That is good.
Karen. And one of the things that people will be able to do not quite yet but check back a year from now, is you will be able to go through a series of questions related to what kinds of things your trying to do. And what type, I don’t want to say what type of disability you have, but functionally what types of problems are having. And the site will try to guide you towards the appropriate products.
One of the things that we noticed is that unless you are familiar with the types of products that are out there, some of the terminology is a bit odd sometimes. For example if you are looking for a communication product, not many people know to look under AAC, which is Augmented and Alternative Communications.
Dr. Skaden. No.
Karen. So we are going to try to do is set up so that a person could say okay, Dad just had a stroke. He is having trouble with communication. He is having trouble using one hand. And hopefully the system would then be able to try to guide them.
Dr. Skaden. So it would prompt them to other questions, and lead them through to not necessarily making a prescription, but giving them the resources were they could find things.
Karen. Correct.
Dr. Skaden. Well that is excellent. That is actually a new area that I did not know anything about. So I have learned a lot today.
Karen. And the exciting thing is that this has not been implemented completely yet, we just started. But for the science education products that are on our website we have tried to provide information about where people can order varyous things like talking calculators, and light sensors that make auditory beeps, and various items like that. And we are going to be or we actually are in the process of slowly adding them to the database for assistivetech.net, so that information will be usable by those projects.
Dr. Skaden. Well very good Karen, I really appreciate your time. People will want to contact you; they always do when we have these webcasts. Would you mind giving your email address?
Karen. No problem. My name is karen.milchus@arch.gatech.edu.
Dr. Skaden. Very good. That is Karen Milchus from Georgia Tech, and we appreciate your time today Karen. And I look forward to checking out all these new website’s that I did not know about.
Karen. Thank you.
Dr. Skaden. Thank you so much for time.