Norm Coombs: Welcome friends to EASI's regular Webcast. Thank you to those who tune in regularly and for those who don't, and who have tuned in today to listen to Doug Wakefield, our special guest, I hope you'll make this a habit. We try to get interviews that have rather a wide interest.
Before I introduce Doug, I want to introduce my buddy and close colleague, whose running the controls. Say hello Dick.
Dick Banks: Hello Norm. High everybody. Hello to you Doug.
Doug Wakefield: Hello Dick
Norm: And that's Dick Banks Make sure he's got a real name. And we have.. I/m in southern California and Dick's in northern Wisconsin. And our guest today, Doug Wakefield is in Washington, DC.
Doug works for the government, the Federal Access Board. He had a whole series of jobs before that but we won't take the time to go into his colored past. I want to focus on the Access Board but in particular, we're interested in 508.
Doug, what do we mean by 508?
Doug: Well 508. What they will do is, Congress will pass a piece of legislation and then they start adding amendments. And I don't know that the Rehabilitation Act is amendments 100 through 400, but there is certainly is 501, 502, 503 and we get up to 508.
508 is an amendment to the Rehabilitation Act that was passed in 1973. And it covers the Executive branch which is the majority of the US Government, that basically says that you can't discriminate on the basis of disability.
Norm: So my understanding in the original 508 was pretty weak and voluntary, Right?
Doug: Yeah, they had 508 in 1986 and it just said that it would be a good idea if people tried to incorporate designs that would help people with disabilities access information. There was no requirement really and no enforcement.
Then in 1998, they revisited the issue. Rewrote 508. Put a lot of teeth in it. And basically set it up now so just like agencies have to be concerned with other types of safety for environmental protection, environmental pollution etc., when they purchase different types of equipment, now they have to be concerned with whether or not the mainstream information technology will work with assistive technology. Will it be accessible in and of itself.
Norm: Well it came along just in time because you know, we're jumping into the information age with both feet and if it's not going to be accessible, those of us who need special help for access, are going to be really out in the cold. It used to be that it was a nice little ad on and some extra things, but it's.. Every time I have radio or TV on, every commercial is www this and www that. So that the Web and information technology is always present.
Doug: Oh yes, absolutely! Not only that but even your television now. We went shopping, my wife and I, quite awhile ago for a new steno receiver. I had in my head that I was going to get one of these fancy home theater type things with surround sound. We could not find one that didn't have some kind of on-screen system that you literally had to see the screen. So this whole visual, graphical interface to all types of equipment is becoming quite a challenge.
Norm: Well, to my limited technical information, I'm a historian by trade. When you're throwing digital stuff and turning it into menus on the screen, if it was built into the system, for probably pennies per set, the could probably have audio output too.
Doug: Well, for the very reason that all the hardware obviously in most sets like that, is already there in the audio. It's just a matter of software and years ago, we would say well, there's no chips to handle the software in these things. But nowadays, everything has computer chips in it. So, it's just a matter of the demand and industry seeing there's a market.
Norm: Well, I think it's in some ways a little more than that. You know, I think using television is part of how you get information as well as entertainment in our world. I don't see how we can in a democratic society, afford to shut a segment of the population out and access to information.
Doug: Well, that's true. You see this is why we have 508. Because, with regulation, without some type of requirement, we're just not seen as a marketable approach for industry.
Norm: Oh, I understand. But it's just a little more than a marketing issue.
Doug: Yeah, well for it to happen it has to be. Yes, you've got to take it away from just being a market issue.
Norm: Well, I think the need is more than, you know (inaudible)
Doug: You see this is the goal of 508. To use the buying power of the government to bring about the change.
Norm: Well, buying power, in my limited experience, seems to be more powerful than compulsory legislation.
Doug: Yes, and when you make that compulsory legislation you must buy. You make the best of both worlds.
Norm: Yeah, yeah. So, section 508 amended to the original Rehab. Act and it was updated and revised in 1998 and legislation is always a bit generic. So somebody had to sit down and turn that generic piece of legislation into something tangible. That was your job, wasn't it?
Doug: That was our job here at the board and I was the lead person on the that because what the law actually says, the actual legislation, is that when agencies maintain or develop information technology that the information and data must be accessible on a comparable basis for people with disabilities as it is to your employees without disabilities. And the same is true when agencies make information available to the public. You've got to make it available to people with disabilities comparable, you know, and equal manner.
Well, that's where the law stops. Now, the Access Board is going to develop additions, requirements that the government must follow when purchasing equipment or developing like websites and so on, that will make the law actually happen. This is typical in general. If they pass an air palliation law, congress doesn't write the standards that that's turned over to the EPA.
Norm: Right. Now, if my memory serves me right, your standards came out in something like December 2000, and took effect when?
Doug: Yeah they cam out in December, 2000 and as the law stated, it was six months for the Federal acquisition folks The folks that write the rules on how government agencies will actually buy. How to implement them. That came out in June and so anything procured after June 21st of 2001, must be 508 compliant.
Norm: OK, so June, 2001 is the start date. And so before we start looking at the progress of that, I do want to go a little further into the background that, at least as I understand it, divides the standard into two categories. One that deals with Internet and online information. And the other that deals with all kinds of on-site equipment and providing access to that equipment. Is that correct?
Doug: Yeah because we divide our technical standards into software, telecommunications products and services. Multimedia productions. Self-contained systems, such as information kiosks and so on. And the actual hardware box for desktop and portable PC's.
Norm: Well, I'm a government purchasing agent and I'm buying a copying machine. Does it have to be accessible to a blind person?
Doug: As accessible as it possibly can me. The machine probably.. It's unreasonable to expect the machine, although I know different models that will do it, you don't have to have the machine capable of telling you whether you had a blank side down, but any of us that have used scanners know that it's very easy for the machine say, The page is blank." It's actually possible to do.
Norm: But there was no (inaudible) having to spit out OCR text. Or the controls being accessible to a blind person?
Doug: Yes. And also accessible to people with mobility difficulties operating lets say from a wheelchair, many copiers are built so big that you could just sit there and look at it You couldn't reach anything and if you could reach the controls, you still couldn't read the information.
Dick: Well, it seems to me that when 508 first came out and even today, I think 508 in a lot of people's minds is simply associated with the Web and it;s much more than that.
Doug: Absolutely. And as a matter of fact, I was at a meeting with my chief information officers and said sort of tongue in cheek. Don't get blind sided
Norm: Oh that's nasty Doug.
Doug: The problem is it threatens their whole focus. I kept saying to them as well as myself. Anyone who listens knows the real challenge, when it comes to employees, is software. The software that you run on your computer to do your job.
Norm: Yes, I've been most aware of what's happening on the Web and not the other. But there's other sections. You mentioned telecommunications. Does that mean that cell phones are going to have to be more accessible for people with disabilities?
Doug: Very definitely, if their purchased by the government. And of course, you know, (inaudible). They're not going to develop a line of products for the government and then another line without the features for the general public.
Dick: That just makes sense. If you're going to put them in some, you might as well put them in all. It doesn't take any more to do that. The technology has been developed to do that, you might as well have it in all.
Norm: Well, I can see they might produce a special luxury line with all kinds of crazy bell and whistles for the teenage kids who wants to buy some fancy cell phone.
Doug: Yeah. The good thing is that (inaudible) they not buy the fanciness'.
Norm: I could see something that would not aim at the government.
Doug: Well, that's true.
Norm: That means that they are going to produce something that is accessible.
I think what we really want to focus on. We had a couple of interviews with you before about 508 and the Web. Before your standards came out the Web Accessibility Initiative put out a number of guidelines. And I know they heavily influenced your work. I realize that one of the differences that yours are legal standards and they have to be made so that lawyers and judges can deal with the little better. I can't remember the wording of the accessibility guideline but one talks about well organized pages or something to that effect. I can see a lawyer trying to play with that. They'd have a great time.
Doug: As simple as possible language.
Norm: Yeah, yeah, those are great concepts and I support them whole heartily. But it's not the kind of thing you want to hand a lawyer.
Doug: Right.
Norm: He'd be glad to have it. He's get rich off of it.
Dick: Well, even a Web developer. They have to have something they can shoot at.
Doug: Yes.
Norm: Well, my understanding is that's the underlying difference between you and WAI, other than any other philosophical difference,
Doug: The only other access philosophical difference lies in the drafting. The original version one of the access guidelines basically focused on the ability to have access to everything using primarily a text based browser only. And this is why they had such things as any information that requires scripts and plug-ins, must also be available when those are not supported.
We felt that technology and the screen reader technology had moved to a point where that probably wasn't practical anymore. And that people could work within the GUI, the graphical interface, and we didn't need to put those restrictions on scripting and so on that were there before.
Norm: I think that's pretty obvious reasoning from my perspective.
Dick: I would agree.
Norm: So I don't know how much we want to go through reminding people of the standards We'll have a link to them on our page next to this webcast. You can look at them. So we've had what. June.. 15, 16 months. Something like that? I'm not sure I can count that high. You know I'm getting pretty old here.
Doug: About a year and a quarter.
Norm: How has it been for you in a year and a quarter?
Doug: It's been very interesting. The whole concept of 508. First of all it kind of shocked us here at the board. Because nothing has given the board such visibility. I'm not so sure that's good but we got it. I mean it just took off. And whether or not people are doing it right. They are thinking about it and they know about the idea and these are vendors especially. They know about the idea of they've got to do something now. They just can't, you know, coast by.
Yes some vendors obviously wish it would go away. These are the same vendors that don't want any regulations that has to do with accessibility or air pollution or anything. And that's just natural for vendors to resist federal regulations. I tell you though. There have been some real surprises.
It came in waves. Last year. This would have been just before the requirements came out. In October we always tally up how much the board did. How many training's we got, And I did approximately 95 training's or presentations hitting about 40 different cities.
Norm: All in about 95 days?
Doug: Well, it was more than that. Oh it was way over that. For instance. In April, just before the (inaudible) came out, I was gone 20 out of 30 days.
Norm: How did your wife survive?
Doug: Well, fortunately she travels a lot too, so we try to coordinate our travel so we're both gone. But it was industry that wanted me to come out and talk to them. Also universities. I had a very nice trip to Auburn University in Alabama. Been out to Missouri and Kansas City and Columbus, Missouri.
Primarily it's industry. Now the interesting thing is, to show you the motivation, is the board has a very small budget. We're only a staff of 32 people. And we have a budget of about 3 and a half million. That's for everything. And so, there isn't any way that I could afford to do that traveling to do these presentations unless the companies wanted it bad enough to pay for it. So all that travel was reimbursed tarsal. That the company said we think it's worthwhile to fly you out here and pay for your room and board and perdium and put on workshops for us. And the companies I least expected, for instance the copier people. They jumped on the bandwagon fast.
Norm: That seems to be a rough competitive market.
Doug: It seems to be. I thought because it was hardware, that it would take longer. But those engineers said OK, here's what we've go to do. We know how to do this. And they did things including just lowering them with creative new designs. Put casters on the copiers. Much better controls on them. Putting on a serial port with drivers in it, so that you could have a dedicated computer if you want. Computers are now for or five hundred dollars or cheaper. And just put the assistive technology you need on it and run the copier from the little work station right next to it.
Dick: Wow!
Doug: And that's happening a lot.
Norm: So that's less trouble than trying to put talking buttons on the machine?
Doug: Oh yeah. It is much easier to just have all the information available on the serial port and have a computer that you have the assistive technology. Because if somebody needs, you have a deaf/blind employee, you're not going to make those buttons in Braille output. But here you can tailor the controls. So here it's an ideal solution. I've always been when at all possible, for making things compatible with the assistive technology people want to use rather than say, this is they way to make it accessible and you have to do it this way.
Dick: Well, it just makes sense. That any blind person who has anything to do with a computer is going to use a screen reader. So if they have software that will run the copier, that just makes sense.
Doug: Yes. And of course the other thing is lots of times they're on the networks now. I run a copier from my computer and I know that Vanderheiden always says, "But you're using it as a printer." And sometimes that's true. But my printer won't staple. My copier will.
Dick: What do you do with that, Gregg?
Norm: Well, that's good.
Doug: But that's the first group. Ironically, I would say if there is any, "resistance", and I wouldn't rally call it resistance, the software people have had more trouble wrapping their heads around the 508 concept. Although when you take the standards and show them to the programmer, they say oh, is that what this is? Well, we know how to do that. It's a matter of.. It's not the programmers. It's more or less a policy of don't tell us how to make our software. We're the experts. I think there has been some resistance there. Only because again, you know software is a creative process. People don't like to have their creative juices fooled with.
Norm: Yeah, but from my understanding it doesn't really tamper with them.
Doug: Exactly. As a matter of fact, I don't know if I said this in the past, but I for years, before the government, ran my own company and sold specialized equipment, assistive technology and I discovered very early that there are two mentalities when it comes this stuff. Either, what's it going to do to my system. If anything breaks, it must be that technology you're using. Or wow, this is really cool. How can we make it work better. And so, the same is true today with 508. Some are saying, oh boy this is something new can compete on and we can be creative on. Or others say, well, maybe we can figure out how are products can be exempt.
Norm: I think sometimes when you have to work with some restrictions, it really enhances your creativity actually. My wife's a water color painter. Smoothes she's done some painting just using primary colors or some other limited palette. She found she could do everything but it took a little more creativity and often times the end product turns out to benefit from the extra thought that went into it.
Doug: Well, I had a situation, for instance, where I contacted a company because I had a monitor that I can read with an Opticon. It was a beautiful monitor. The only problem was that you had to adjust lightness, darkness, contrast of the monitor with an on-screen menu. And I said, I wrote the company just because I happen to know people there, because I had been out there to do some presenting. Do you know anybody in the country that is developing a utility so that you could control the monitor and set all these things from the computer? They said well no, we really haven't. Why do you want to do it" And I said from a disability standpoint, if nothing else, you would pass your 508 comparability. Because all of a sudden, if your monitor wasn't that visual at first, a person wouldn't have to rely on vision. They could use their screen reader to get it to the right contrast and they wrote back and said we're taking another look at this because your also, what you don't realize is you're going to save us a lot of money because this means we don't have to build those controls into the monitor.
Norm: Well, there are a lot of things you can control from the keyboard. So we do want to get to the Web. What kind of reception have you found with the Web standards?
Doug: In general. Very good. There is still an awful lot of misunderstanding. What I would say. I would say probably the area where there is still the most confusion is how do I know that I've met the standards. Do I need to test my pages with WindowEyes or Hal or outSPOKEN or something before I now. Then I hear people say well, I tried it with JAWS and it worked fine. Or I have run it with JAWS and it couldn't do this. Are you testing the screen reader or are you testing your Web design?
Norm: Yeah, that's true.
Doug: And what it might not do today, this version 16.3, it might do tomorrow with 16.4. And so as many times as I've said it, I still have to keep saying it. You start by looking at your own code. How did you do it? The other problem we're having is people, it is just a natural thing, they want a tool to test it for them. But tools can't do human judgment. One of the simplest places where errors a testing tool chokes on. Lets say you have something up on the Web and the text says, as it's going on, and below you'll find a picture on one of my wife's best water color paintings. That's enough. You could say. You'll find a water color painting with this and that. A lot more than you would put in an ALT tag. So you don't put an ALT tag there because you've already described it. Believe me, you will get a flunking mark for not having the ALT tag. Even though you've met 508. Because there is no way for an automatic tool to judge the quality of the writing.
Norm: That's right.
Doug: Well, what's in the ALT tag?
Norm: In my own page, I had my picture and I tried to figure out what to put in the tag. I thought of putting distinguished, handsome professor. No, I can't do that, so I decided to put in personal photo. Somebody wrote me and said it's not an adequate accessible tag. I thought about it for five more seconds and said, too bad, it's staying. It's a judgment call if it's an accessible tag. You may think it is and I may think it isn't.
Doug: It is. It is a judgment call. You'll find people that want a page long description. And then there are others who will say, I just want hear that's the company logo and I can skip it and keep going.
Dick: Well, the thing that I think happens quite often is people because they happen to get, let's say Bobby approval, they think that that's the end of it. And it's fine. And it really isn't. And I see some pages that are very useable that did not pass Bobby. So, it's software. That's what it is and it can only do what it does. You shouldn't put all your money in the bank Just because it happens to be compliant with a given piece of software. A checker.
Doug: It is also true. Don't throw up your hands and quit because you've got 600 errors. Because I had someone say not long ago that 80 percent of the Federal Websites are way below 508 compliance. And it was someone who was not an html coder or anything, they just ran Bobby on a whole bunch of pages. And that's not fair and it's not even professional.
Norm: Now question. So 508 is the Federal procurement piece of legislation. And so on the first level we're looking at Web pages that the government hires an employee, or outsources someone to do. What's your impression of how companies that are doing Web pages for the government are doing. Are they jumping on board easily, or are they dragging their feet?
Doug: Well, I think they are jumping on board because again, it's something for them to compete on. The good thing is, the law you see actually says that complaints can only be filed against procurements. Even though it says 508 covers developing, maintaining and use. So, in theory, you could say legally that develop the website in house, they can't get sued. And that's true. However, we have found, from our own experiences and just reactions from agencies. I don't think I have one agency say to me. Well, yeah I know 508's out there, but we do all ours in house, so we don't have to comply. They still want to do it.
Norm: Yeah, that would be pretty (inaudible)
Doug: Yeah, it just doesn't happen.
Norm: Some bureaucrats may be up to that, but. So that's going pretty well?
Doug: Yes it is. We've gone past the issue of just looking at ALT tags and so on we've gone to the issue of basic Java scripts. We had a siege of questions and things on tables and we've got quite a bit of material up on how to do accessible tables. Smoothing called (inaudible), which is a big consortium of several agencies that put on a lot of statistical data. That have a couple of day workshop on just how to do tables correctly.
Now we're moving into the area, it seems, of e-learning. And how do you make these fancy Java based or Flash based presentations accessible. And this is something I gave a talk at an e-learning conference last week. I said I have to stay in line. I can't say what I really would. But I said, I guess you could just call me a hard butt on this, but I/m not cutting any slack. When it comes to e-learning, there are darn few things that are more important to people with disabilities than being able to get access to training.
Norm: That's right.
Doug: And the online, electronic services has real promise of making training available. This is an area now where there's a lot of focus in the government and a lot of the companies are beginning to show. OK, we've developed this. What do you think? And they start competing with each other.
Norm: I think I'm seeing a little bit of that. I find it very encouraging. I think we've got a lot of people listening to this that have got one question in the back of their mind. That we can't give them a neat answer to and that is does 508 apply to my college. Obviously for the Web the answer is no. It's Federal procurement legislation.
Doug: That's true and it doesn't follow the grant trail. But, the very fact that, for instance, Auburn University, (inaudible). I did an all day workshop down there and I've been to other universities and had lots of contact with universities. They want to do it. It gives them something finally something , they've always had some obligation under ADA and 504, where it applies, to make their services accessible. And now they've got some inaudible) you're meeting your already existing obligations.
Norm: Well, I think that's the thing. There are places that want to become accessible and there are others that the laws are trying to push them into it. But half the time, nobody knows what that means.
Doug: Exactly.
Norm: And even if it doesn't legally apply, if 508 is sitting there as a yardstick. So if you're looking for a yardstick, it's there. And some people are grabbing it.
Doug: And you know, accessibility for a lot of people is just sort of like magic. What does it mean. What do you mean make it accessible. And now at least, and I say this to them, I'm not going to talk about how to make your equipment accessible. What I'm going to talk about is how to make it 508 compliant. If we did our job right, then it's accessible.
Dick: That interesting.
Norm: There are those people that would argue as to whether that is really accessible or not and I have no interest in getting into that debate. Certainly not here. But we do at least have a yardstick. I know there are a lot of us that have talked about accessibility even before the WAI guidelines came out. And it was hard to get anybody to take us seriously because there was noting they could measure it by. There was so many contradictory voices that they said the heck with the whole thing. So whether people like it or not, we've got a yardstick and that's a lot more than we had before.
And Doug, I want to thank you for it. Thank you and your good wife for all your travel and work.
Doug: Well, we've enjoyed it for the most part. We really have.
Norm: And we'll be back in touch with you in a few more months and find out how things are going. We know you've got your fingers on the pulse and we want to find out how the body politic is surviving.
Doug: Well, yeah. We are going to.. The Rehab Act gets reauthorized every five years so 2003. Keep your fingers crossed.
Norm: That's a little scary. Well, OK, thank you Doug for the interview and even more than that, thank you for all your work in helping to push the whole issue of accessibility on-site and on-line for those of us who need it.
Doug: Well, thank you Norm and I guess now I will harness up the dog and go push my way through Isador and all the rain.
Dick: Oh my.
Doug: I noticed about three o'clock our time it was just beginning to really come down.
Norm: Oh boy.
Doug: If I don't drown, I'll talk to you in a few months.
Dick: Thanks Doug. As usual it was an very informative conversation and I'm sure people will gather a lot from it. Thank you.